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Iron Golem Farms

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Magpieman

Administrator
Staff member
Old One
Iron Golems will no longer drop iron ingots. This is to prevent them being farmed and converted at spawn for infinite emeralds. For the same reason Zombie Pigman will no longer drop gold. That is all.
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
I am against removing these, and yes I might be biased because i kill both golems and pigmen for their resources. Could the ore exchanger just be changed to accept Gold ore blocks and iron ore blocks instead of breaking the contraptions and areas that lokans have taken there time to build?
 

Artagan

Active Member
Slicer
I was actually relieved when I read this, since I can now get rid of the ugly cobble iron golem farm in Citadel.
 

Artagan

Active Member
Slicer
If you could make an iron golem farm look good I'd prefer it to strip mining, sure. Strip mines are usually fugly. But it's really just up to how easy Crypt thinks getting iron ought to be. Either way is fine by me, although mining is definitely less convenient for people who give a damn about defense. But that's kind of the point.
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
Basically Iron Ingots and Gold Ingots can be farmed. However, Iron ore and Gold ore can only be mined. If the ore exchanger was changed where it would only accept iron ore and gold ore then there is no possibility to gain infinite emeralds. Thus allowing everyone to keep farming gold and iron ingots to solely advance their town with rails, pistons, and fancy blocks.
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
The fact remains that gold and iron are valuable items and blocks. They act as currency because our economy doesn't just run on emeralds. This change is in order to prevent inevitable inflation. If you or I were able to farm gold an iron at our full potential then we would be ridiculously rich compared to everyone else.

Unfortubately, I'm taking a big hit from this but it's apparent that it is necessary. I'll just have to surpass Mag's riches another way. :p
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
The fact remains that gold and iron are valuable items and blocks. They act as currency because our economy doesn't just run on emeralds. This change is in order to prevent inevitable inflation
The fact that Iron golem farms being on the server for over 2 years with no inflation seems like it is not that full of potential. Because we had the rule" you have to manually kill the golems" kept that issue in check I thought.
If you or I were able to farm gold an iron at our full potential then we would be ridiculously rich compared to everyone else.
As far as the Farming pigmen, the spawning rate is so erratic that you barely break even compared to just branch mining. Have there even been any tests to see how effective the golems and pigmen farms are compared to branch mining?
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
Doesn't change the effects it has on economy if I can easily farm stacks upon stacks of iron or gold with merely a little persistence.

Their decision is made and I'm telling the reasons why I believe it won't be reversed as well as the reasons the change was implemented. There's no further debate, unfortunately.
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
I'll let Mag speak more to this, but this is also around to address mob farms. Lots of people have fancy complicated golem farms and they do cause extra strain on the server. This would be magnified if we grew immensely and everybody had them as well.
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
Lots of people have fancy complicated golem farms and they do cause extra strain on the server. This would be magnified if we grew immensely and everybody had them as well.
The rule "must manually kill" was implemented to keep gen feeding to a minimum. However, this also caused towns to stock up golems to kill all at once. If the ingots were removed from the exchanger, the farms ban on being automatic would not be needed to avoid infinite emeralds. Golem farms could then become barely anything to strain the server if they became automatic.
 

mopb3

Well-Known Member
Slicer
I'd say as much that if we wanted to encourage rail projects, or even have them be viable on a worldwide scale, banning golem farms is probably a bad way to go about it. I don't see the server stats so I can't vouch for it causing lag but Kobey actually might have a point there with his solution. I don't think that much of the stuff put into the exchanger is iron anyway so I doubt it'd hurt people's ability to fuel gens much.
 

Magpieman

Administrator
Staff member
Old One
We have been over this topic many times and it is not a discussion on whether they should drop iron or not, they simply will not anymore due to the numerous problems with golem farms. (same goes for zombie pigman) They issues are the following:

1. Trading the iron at spawn would provide infinite emeralds. (This one could be solved by changing the ore exchanger but there are not many rare resources left in the game we could use instead)
2. Most crafting recipes in minecraft use iron. The server is challenging and we want to keep it that way. Gaining an infinite supply of the two main ores in the game makes many things in minecraft much easier. This isn't a creative server.
3. The economy is mainly run on 4 currencies, Iron, Gold, Diamond and Emeralds. The reason these are used is because they are both useful and take time to gain in large quantities. Gaining an infinite supply of 2 of these kills the economy.
4. Most lag on the server is caused by entities and golem farms just add to this issue. Yes auto kill farms solve the lag problem but at the same time greatly increase the severity of the above issues.
5. Admins cannot check every farm on the server to see if they are within the rules.

The old rule was that you had to manually kill golems, however this meant players kept large quantities of them causing lag. On top of this numerous players were not following the rules and had auto kill farms set up. After removing the auto kill feature and telling these players they continued to put the auto kill feature back in. Being an admin is hard enough, keeping checks on everyone and dealing with rule breaks without having to go around every town and base on the server to check their golem farms are within the rules. This is just not sustainable long term.
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
1. Trading the iron at spawn would provide infinite emeralds. (This one could be solved by changing the ore exchanger but there are not many rare resources left in the game we could use instead)
.........
3. The economy is mainly run on 4 currencies, Iron, Gold, Diamond and Emeralds. The reason these are used is because they are both useful and take time to gain in large quantities. Gaining an infinite supply of 2 of these kills the economy.
Both these issue would be solved by removing iron/gold ingots as currency and replacing it with iron/gold ore. Even if you have an infinite number of iron/gold ingots the only way to get an iron/gold ore block is to go mine it. There is not way to turn Ingots back into ore allowing iron/gold ore blocks to become currency with no issues of infinite emeralds from the exchanger.
2. Most crafting recipes in minecraft use iron. The server is challenging and we want to keep it that way. Gaining an infinite supply of the two main ores in the game makes many things in minecraft much easier. This isn't a creative server.
27 items contain iron in their crafting recipies.9 recipies are tools and armor related that become outdated once you obtain diamonds.4 are related to doors,pressure plates, and trip wire. 3 are ascetics (iron block,iron bars, and cauldron).4 are tools that are not outdated with diamonds(bucket,compass,sheers, and flint and steel). 4 are related to rails and minecarts.3 building blocks actually have legit uses(hoppers,pistons, and anvils). There are only a few items that you would actually gain anything by having a mass amount of them other then making your town pretty. Buckets/hoppers/pistons/anvils/rails would be in this category.However, Pistons are so cheap as is,you don't really need more then one anvil at a time unless you are making elaborate death traps, and a person can only hold 36 full buckets at one time. This leaves only hoppers and rails subject to mass production that does not deal with ascetics. Hoppers (imo) would only decrease the lag by removing entities and rails would only be useful to complete a "world rail" if one of those are being built. Honestly, I have no defense to "this is not a creative server" other then it takes time to build the farms,it is a legit part of vanilla minecraft, and the acquiring of the iron is a slow trickle unless you turn your entire town into an iron golem farm.
As far as gold is concerned, the only thing that would be worth while to farm pigmen for is powered rails, golden apples, and enchanted golden apples. Enchanted golden apples are the only thing that would be able to be abused by auto farms. Only alternative for minimizing that abuse would be to leave pigmen auto farming illegal, with the only way to kill them is free roamed(no auto kill and no gathering in a pin).
5. Admins cannot check every farm on the server to see if they are within the rules.
The only things that admins would have to worry about with my suggestion would be making sure no auto gold farms were being used(would make this process easier if coding would allow for the server to turn off items drop to non-player damage kills pigmen and have the recourse watching pluggins watch the rates of gold ingots/nuggets picked up). If automatic golem farms were legal then the only rule they would have to enforce is don't lag the server.

Summary:
We have been over this topic many times and it is not a discussion on whether they should drop iron or not, they simply will not anymore due to the numerous problems with golem farms.
A majority of the problems don't come from the golem farms. They come from allowing items that can be farmed legit in vanilla minecraft to be traded for features that are offered through the server pluggins when it is meant only for items that should only be abled to be mined. Main thing I am trying to say is that if we replace ingots(that can be farmed) for ores(that can only be mined) as the currency for the server then there is no need to remove a vanilla feature. The problem lies with the ore exchanger pluggin.... not the game.
Basically 3 out of 5 of your issues with farms are actually issues created by the server pluggin. 1 of your issues is enforcing that the other 3 issues are not breaking the server pluggin. Your final issue is about the farms would make the server a "creative server". These farms allow collecting iron and gold easier then typical means, but it is far from creative mode. However, I have little defense against this issue other then it is legit feature in vanilla minecraft.
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
I could keep repeating myself that iron and gold will continue to be a valuable resource. We don't define them as a currency, they just are, for the simple fact that people want it and it's valuable enough to use for trade. An infinite source is just not acceptable anymore.

You also did not defend the issues it can and does cause with lag. Large amounts of golems and pigmen and golems begin to take their toll on the server. If numbers keep rising like they have then this will only get worse.

The fact that Iron golem farms being on the server for over 2 years with no inflation

By the way, we've experienced a constant influx of value with ores. Restricting golem farms to 'hand-killing' hasn't kept it in check. One of the biggest things that did was world changes; namely the blight transition. I had quite a few stacks of iron blocks and somewhere around 27 stacks of emerald blocks because of ore exchange. I was filthy rich because all I did was farm ores and use them for trades and exchanges.
 

Kobeyador

Member
Slicer
You also did not defend the issues it can and does cause with lag. Large amounts of golems and pigmen and golems begin to take their toll on the server. If numbers keep rising like they have then this will only get worse.
Sorry, I didn't say in my post that these suggestions are also to avoid lag. I suggested to let iron golem farms be turned automatic and only allow pigmens to be killed only while they are free roaming. This kills golems soon after they spawn and this avoids players pinning up hundreds of zombies in a grinder.
Only alternative for minimizing that abuse would be to leave pigmen auto farming illegal, with the only way to kill them is free roamed(no auto kill and no gathering in a pin).
If automatic golem farms were legal then the only rule they would have to enforce is don't lag the server.
 

MasterAegon

Active Member
Slicer
You're argument that infinite sources of iron don't affect the value is comical. If everyone has the capability of farming iron endlessly then iron is worthless. The only thing anyone would ever trade or pay for is to save time. And to make auto kill golem farms legal would only make it worse.

Additionally, as Mag said, we can't keep every one of these farms in check so it's not going to stop people from herding all these entities in one place, causing lag until we can find it. The only way to stop these situations is to render it obsolete, which is what they did. No argument you make is going to change that infinite sources cause inflation and mass entities cause lag. If a middle ground is achieved, it'll be implemented.

End of case.
 

Cryptite

Elder
Staff member
Elder
The change is final and this thread's getting silly. Locking both of these since they're the same argument in two places...
 
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